"And remember... Your number of dives should be equaled by your number of surfacings!" -- Michael Layne

U-Boats and Submarines

Michael Layne
Subject: Re: DG: EH: JADE THRONE--China Chapter
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 22:26:43 EST

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 The Man in Black writes:
> The Goddess of the Black Fan is required for clues leading to the
> action on Grey Dragon Island (Secret Volcano Base, Luftwaffe AD, and the
> secret Karotechia U-boat fleet... OK, they only have one stolen sub, sue me
>:)
A Type XXI, I guess.... If they'd been introduced a year earlier, the Battle of the Atlantic might have had a different ending!
Should I try and find you a couple of Nazi U-Boat sites?

Checking in a guide to US Navy Fighter Aircraft, I found some additional info on the US Flying Discs (XF5U-1) in case you want to roll them out of storage at China Lake or Edwards for the Big Dogfight Scene with the Nazi Flying Discs from the Secret Volcano Base! Apparently the XF5U-1 was STOL, with a stall speed of less than 40 knots, and a top speed in excess of 400 knots (a gas-turbine version was planned that would have been VTOL!), so the US Flying Discs would be able to easily operate from a converted containership or oil tanker! Also, apparently the saucer shape has some stealth capability...


The Man in Black
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 23:14:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: DG: EH: JADE THRONE--China Chapter

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Michael Layne: Naval Historian, Award winning lingerie model, and milk drinker, wrote:
> Should I try and find you a couple of Nazi U-Boat sites?
Forward U-boat links to Phil for inclusion on the links page of EH. Actually I was thinking they have a stolen Russian Sub (Victor/Kefal or Navaga, which has a kewler looking con tower) with one operational missile. The warhead would be a device they hope will open a gate over the Indian Ocean just like in Masks of Nyarlathotep.

Hell, lets just give the Karotechia a Typhoon and let 'em really kick ass. Tigers Of Terra! AWAY~!

> Checking in a guide to US Navy Fighter Aircraft, I found some
> additional info on the US Flying Discs (XF5U-1) in case you want to roll
> them out of storage at China Lake or Edwards for the Big Dogfight Scene
> with the Nazi Flying Discs from the Secret Volcano Base! Apparently the
> XF5U-1 was STOL, with a stall speed of less than 40 knots, and a top
> speed in excess of 400 knots (a gas-turbine version was planned that
> would have been VTOL!), so the US Flying Discs would be able to easily
> operate from a converted containership or oil tanker! Also, apparently
> the saucer shape has some stealth capability...
POST! Don't let that annoying moderator cow you into submission! You can always resubscribe from a different email!

Your mention of converted container ships and oil tankers brings back fond memories of the M/T Madre Negro, the NWI oil tanker full of protomatter. She was a fine ship until they Philedelphia Experimented her away. Damned Pretorious Resonator! Sniff...


Michael Layne
Subject: Re: DG: EH: JADE THRONE--China Chapter
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 00:28:30 EST

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 The Man in Black writes:
> Forward U-boat links to Phil for inclusion on the links page of EH.
For U-boat data, I recommend uboat.net. It includes data (to varying degrees) on virtually every U-boat the German Navy built during the War years!
If the Karotechia are using a WWII vintage boat, it is very likely to be a Type XXI (see: Type XXI, and u2540b).

Or (if they want to play with hydrogen peroxide, with the attendant risks ("Suddenly you'll see a glare -- You'll be pieces everywhere...")), even a Type XVIII (the oceangoing combat version of the Walter design, slightly smaller than the Type XXI; see: here).

> Actually I was thinking they have a stolen Russian Sub (Victor/Kefal
> or Navaga, which has a kewler looking con tower) with one operational
> missile. The warhead would be a device they hope will open a gate over
> the Indian Ocean just like in Masks of Nyarlathotep.
Does the opening of the gate require a ballistic missile (fired from a boomer) or can it use a cruise missile as a launch vehicle?

The Navaga (better known to us here in the West by its NATO codename of "Yankee Class") is an SSBN, and likely to be the stolen sub if a ballistic missile is required. (In the case of the Yankee class, Herr Kapitan Zeiss' operational missile would be a SS-N-6 (38 feet long, 5 ft 5 inch dia, 1,300 nm range, normal payload one RV with a 1 MT warhead) in one of the sixteen vertical launch tubes.) The Yankee SSBN (or PLARB -- Podvodnaya Lodka Atomnaya Raketnaya Ballisticheskaya -- Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile Submarine) is configured something like the old USN Polaris subs (the Typhoons are the only boomers to have the missiles forward of the sail!), and some information on them can be found at: http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/667.htm.

If you can use a cruise missile, Herr Capitan Zeiss' boat would be a Victor (one site with some Victor class info is: http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/671.htm ) or (my recommendation) the Anchar (NATO designation Papa) class SSN. (See: http://www.bellona.no/e/russia/nfl/661.htm)

The single Papa SSN the Russians have left, K-222, is apparently the fastest sub in the Russian fleet (capable of 44.7 knots -- which is very fast for a 7,000 ton sub, even faster than the 42 knots of the Russians' famous Alfa class subs, and nearly double the 24 knots of a Victor!). The Russians commissioned him (the Russian Navy considers submarines to be "male", unlike many other navies, which refer to the boats as "her") on 31 December 1969. His pressure hull is titanium alloy, permitting a safe diving depth of 400 meters, and the boat uses two pressurized-water reactors (similar type to US SSNs) -- at least no worry about highly-radioactive, violently incendiary, liquid metal coolant as in some of the other Russian boats (e.g. Victor). The boat carries ten cruise missiles in the bow section, between the outer hull casing and the inner pressure hull, plus six 21-inch torpedo tubes in the bow (normal loadout believed to be 12 torpedoes). The hull is coated with anechoic tiles, but the K-222 is believed to be somewhat less stealthy than the US Sturgeon and Los Angeles SSNs. (The single 5-bladed screw is probably the older configuration, before the Russians got those Japanese milling machines, and the propulsion plant sound isolation probably doesn't take full advantage of the info the Soviets acquired via the Walker spy ring...)

K-222 was laid up in 1991, at Bolomorsk Naval Base, Severodvinsk, but has not yet been scrapped, or even defueled! (One reason I'd suggest this boat as the "stolen Russian sub"...)

The cores are old, so the boat might not be able to reach his old maximum performance (without narrowing the already slim safety margins -- better have a good reactor operator!):) Also, the neutrons from the cores have, over the 22 years of plant operation, embrittled the pressure vessels and primary-loop piping in the reactor rooms, and a rapid increase in power (in an emergency situation, for example) could cause a reactor accident! (One reason why the boats built in the 60s are being retired in the 90s...)

(By the way, the Russian subs apparently have fewer reactor safety systems, but even the US subs have a "Battleshort" switch that bypasses the safeties, for those special occasions when the Captain is more worried about being caught by an incoming torpedo than being involved in a loss-of-coolant accident or the like...):)

> Hell, lets just give the Karotechia a Typhoon and let 'em really kick
> ass. Tigers Of Terra! AWAY~!
A Typhoon! (Type 941) -- the biggest submarine yet launched, familiar to everyone who has seen "Hunt for Red October"!

Da, Tovarisch!

Check:

http://www.hail.icestorm.net/typhoon/HistoryStatisticLocations.html

http://www.hail.icestorm.net/typhoon/TechnicalCharacteristics.html

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/typhoon/specs.html

As of the spring of 1998, three of the six Typhoons had been inactivated, although they apparently have not been defueled....

Some book references for people interested in taking DG ops beneath the sea... "Submarine", and "Hunt for Red October", by Tom Clancy, "Modern Submarine Warfare" by David Miller & John Jordan, and "Voyage of the Devilfish" by Michael DiMercurio.

Could get interesting if the USS "Parche", originally engaged in the "Godzilla" op, ends up playing cat-and-mouse with the stolen Russian sub... (Some of the team are aboard Herr Zeiss' boat, wondering if they can disable the sub and missile, and somehow prevent the "Parche" from sinking them... Other team members are aboard the "Parche", complicating Captain MacInnes' already busy day by telling him that their friends are aboard the other sub...):)


Mark McFadden
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:11:00 -0800
Subject: Re: DG: EH: JADE THRONE--China Chapter

MiB chortled:
> and the secret Karotechia U-boat fleet... OK, they only have one
> stolen sub, sue me :)
to which Michael replied:
> A Type XXI, I guess.... If they'd been introduced a year
> earlier, the Battle of the Atlantic might have had a different
> ending! Should I try and find you a couple of Nazi U-Boat sites?
Naaah. Why use a WWII era Nazi prototype when there are plenty of Soviet subs on the market? We've got one moored next to the Queen Mary in Long Beach (part of the LA uber-city).
Now there's an opening for the Russian Mafia connections to the Karotechia, lot's of modern weaponry and several new countries strapped for cash.

Mark McFadden
Running silent, and running.......deep.


JimmieBise,Jr
Subject: DG:EH: More Grist for the Mill
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:47:59 -0800

I happened across something interesting a couple months ago, and, given our Submarine discussion, it seems appropriate to bring it out now.

There is, off the coast of Maryland, in the waters of the Potomac River, a sunken German U-Boat. it's designation is U-1105, and it's nickname was the Black Panther. This boat is special because it was one of fewer than ten submarines to use an experimental synthetic rubber skin designed to defeat Allied sonar devices.

The boat saw limited service, but, in it's time, was able to withstand an Allied depth-charge barrage that lasted over 31 hours, and used 299 depth charges (at least). Eventually, after the war, the boat ended up in US hands, where it was studied, and finally used for target practice in the Potomac River.

Why is this interesting? Well, U-1105 still sits in about 90 feet of water, and is open for the public to dive on. I don't know about a lot of diving expeditions that go down there, but it is an archaeological and historic site. It is classified an advanced dive in a low visibility environment, and is still property of the United States navy, though the site is jointly administered by the navy, and a local museum.

I only mention this for a couple reasons.

If anyone is interested in the whole story, I have a pamphlet on the Sub, complete with a chart of its location and a sketch of the wreck site, pointing out the features of the sub, and what you can expect on the dive. I would rather scan the thing in and send it along as an attachment, but it may take a couple days for me to do so.


Jeff McSpadden
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:09:23 -0600
Subject: Re: DG: EH: JADE THRONE--China Chapter

Another list member and I were discussing a "K" scenario where they had gotten ahold of a ex soviet submarine tender which geatly extended the range and usefulness of the prototype ww 2 subs. I believe the soviets had a huge submersible tender, any ideas?


Michael Layne
Subject: Re: DG: EH: JADE THRONE--China Chapter
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 21:59:44 EST

Mark McFadden writes:
> Naaah. Why use a WWII era Nazi prototype when there are plenty of
> Soviet subs on the market? We've got one moored next to the
> Queen Mary in Long Beach (part of the LA uber-city).
IIRC, the Russian sub in LA is a "Foxtrot" (Project 641) class diesel boat. These were developed in the 50s from the even more elderly "Zulu" class boat, which was in turn based on some Type XXI U-boats which ended up in Russian hands at the end of WWII. When they were built, they were considered "highly capable long-range submarines", but this is no longer the case...

The Russians built 62 of them for their own Navy, and some 17 for export (8 to India, 6 to Libya, 3 to Cuba) before finally shifting to newer types around 1983. The Russians lost several during the early years of service of this class, with at least 28 "Foxtrots" lost or scrapped by 1992. One Baltic Fleet unit, retired in September of 1992, was sold to a Finnish businessman as a tourist attraction, and others have since wound up in private hands.

Poland received two ex-Soviet Navy "Foxtrots" on lease, which purchased them outright in 1992. At last report, the Poles still have them in service, and may have purchased the "Al Fateh" (see below) for parts... (Kinda like owning some makes of foreign cars -- buy a second one for parts!):)

Old Moon 'Em More Khadaffi's mighty fleet still has five out of six of these fearsome sharks of steel (though not in the best material condition, and not with the best-trained crews...)! :) Their sixth, "Al Fateh" was sent to Riga in 1987 for an overhaul, but work ceased with Lithuanian independence, and the boat has since been towed away -- probably to be abandoned or scrapped, as the UN arms embargo against Libya would apparently prevent its return. (Now, _there_ is a sub for you, if you believe in living dangerously! Personally, I wouldn't wish a partly-dismantled, obsolete, Russian-built ex-Libyan submarine on even the Karotechia!:))

For the benefit of any DG teams that may have the misfortune of ending up (a good way to put it...) with the "Al Fateh" or one of her sisters, or be held prisoner aboard one, here are a few stats...

Builders: Sudomekh Shipyard, Leningrad
Displacement: 1950 T surfaced, 2400 T submarged
Dimensions: 302 feet Length OA x 24 feet 9 inches Beam x 19 feet 9 inches Draft
Watertight Compartments: 7
Operating Depth: 250 meters (820 feet) Collapse Depth: 280 meters (918 feet)
(Note: These figures are from from the 1995 edition of "Combat Fleets", and probably represent a "Foxtrot" as commissioned. Decrepit specimens may collapse at shallower depths, to the detriment of all aboard, and this researcher makes no guarantees as to depth capability (at least if one intends to come back to the surface). Note the narrow safety margin between "operating" and "collapse" depths!)
Propulsion: Diesel Electric -- diesel engines rated at 6,000 hp, electric motors at 5,300 shp; 3 propeller shafts (Note: Horsepower figures for equipment when new; your HP may vary...) Battery has 448 cells. (Note: If the batteries are charged too rapidly, they can emit explosive hydrogen gas. (One spark = KABOOM!) If sea water leaks into the battery room, the batteries can produce toxic chlorine gas.)
Equipped with snorkel for underwater operation of diesel engines. (Note: As with US diesel boats, the snorkel has an automatic valve that (theoretically) closes if a wave washes over top of the snorkel. In this case, the diesels pull air from inside the boat for a few seconds until the valve reopens, and the fluctuating air pressure inside the boat can be a bit hard on the sinuses... Still, this is preferable to what happens if the snorkel valve doesn't close -- several boats have sunk after their snorkel masts flooded!)
Speed: 16 knots surfaced, 15.5 knots submerged (Note: This was for a new "Foxtrot", with perfectly operating plant and a clean hull... probably downhill with a good current...)
Range: 11,000 nautical miles at 6 knots; submerged endurance (non-snorkel) is estimated at "more than seven days at very slow speed".
Crew: 75-80 (most of those operating are apparently running with 9 officers and 50 enlisted)
Torpedo Tubes: 6x 21-inch in the bow, 4x 16-inch in the stern (Yes, the stern tubes are a smaller diameter than the bow tubes -- they are used for a smaller torpedo, electric-powered, with a shorter range...)

> Now there's an opening for the Russian Mafia connections to the
> Karotechia, lot's of modern weaponry and several new countries
> strapped for cash.
MiB suggested a "Victor" SSN or a "Yankee" or "Typhoon" SSBN, with one operational missile. If the mission can be accomplished with a cruise missile, I suggested the "Papa" SSGN (out of service, but not yet defueled or scrapped); this titanium-hulled twin-screw submarine is the fastest known Russian sub.

> Another list member and I were discussing a "K" scenario where they had
> gotten ahold of a ex soviet submarine tender which geatly extended the
> range and usefulness of the prototype ww 2 subs. I believe the
> soviets had a huge submersible tender, any ideas?
If so, I haven't been able to locate any information on it in "Combat Fleets of the World 1995" (US Naval Institute), or in "Guide to the Soviet Navy, 3rd Edition" (Norman Polmar, Naval Institute Press, 1983).

You may be thinking of the Russian "India" (Lenok) class submarines (Project 940)... These two 4,800 T (submerged) diesel boats each have two wells on the after casing for carrying submersibles up to about 12-meter length (considerably smaller than a "Foxtrot" or Type XXI). These midget submarines can be entered from inside the mother ship, and can dock and undock while both are submerged. The "India" class subs were designed as rescue and salvage support craft, with the submersibles intended to rescue crewmen from sunken subs, much like the US Navy's DSRV. They can, of course, also carry midget submarines for use by Russian Spetsnaz forces.. Besides twin screws, they have a bow thruster for precision maneuvering. They are unarmed -- the hull cross-section is too narrow in the bow for torpedo tubes -- and are likely to be escorted by an SSN in hazardous areas. The hull is configured for high surface speed (15 knots on the surface, 10 submerged) for deployment in salvage or special ops.

The Russian Navy operates a number of tenders of the "Malina", "Don", and "Ugra" classes, plus the unsuccessful "Dnepr" class in reserve, plus the "Prut", "Nepa", and the very elaborately equipped and successful "El'Brus" classes of submarine rescue and salvage vessels, but none of these are submersible.

"And remember... Your number of dives should be equaled by your number of surfacings!"


Continued
Michael Layne
Subject: Re: DG: EH: JADE THRONE--China Chapter
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:03:24 EST

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:30:05 -0500 (EST) The Man in Black writes:

> The Russian Mafia connection was what I was hoping would link the
> Stalingrad/Istanbul Chapters with the China Chapter. However, the
> possibility of experimental prototype German U-boats also appeals to
> me.
> In "Tigers of Terra" the Nazis have a U-boat that opens up to reveal a
> seaplane launching rail. How they get the seaplane back on is a
> mystery to
> me. I think they surface under the plane, then open the hatch and pull
> or push the plane onto the rails. Then they retract the rails with the
> mounted seaplane into the hull, close up and submerge.

If it was anything like the actual seaplane-carrying subs I mention below, they used a folding crane!

Not a bad idea... The notion of launching a plane from a sub seems to have appealed to several Navies just before and during WWII!

Although the Germans never actually built anything like this, some other countries have experimented with aircraft-carrying subs of various types...

The Germans had the Bachstelze ("Wagtail") -- officially, the Focke Achgelis Fa-330 Rotary Wing Kite.
Sort of a cross between a gyrocopter, a hang glider, and a kite, it was towed behind the U-boat on a tow cable/phone line at up to 400 feet altitude, with the observer having a nice time looking around through binoculars, and hoping the boat didn't have to make a quick dive! The Kriegsmarine never built a U-boat with an actual seaplane hangar, partly because the Germans, for much of the War, didn't appreciate the capabilities of air power at sea (and also due to turf battles between Herman Goering and Admiral Raeder over whether ship based planes were a Luftwaffe or Navy responsibility)!

The Brits had their own odd prototype just before the War. HMS M-2 had her 12-inch gun (no, not a typo -- just a humongous _cannon_ in a turret forward of the conning tower) removed, and the turret mount converted to a floatplane hangar. She made her last dive in 1932, when someone left the hangar door open at the wrong time... (OOPS!! glug-glug-glug... Jolly bad show, that!)

The French were slightly more successful with the "Surcouf"). See here for a photo of a 1/350 model of the sub and more information on her. Besides the floatplane, and the big guns, she was equipped with a motorboat that docked to the upper casing (someone had apparently been reading "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea"!):), and a brig capable of holding forty prisoners! The floatplane had to have the wings unstowed and attached before it could fly, and then have them detached and stowed before it could be hangared -- which might have sounded nice back in 1926 when they drew up the plans, but was a bit counterproductive in wartime when the sub might have to dive quickly! She was originally intended to be the first of a class of three, but was the only one completed. (British author Douglas Reeman's novel "Strike From the Sea" deals with the operation of the "Soufiere", a hypothetical second sub of the class, with a mixed French/British crew, in the Pacific -- which was where the "Surcouf" was headed when she got accidentally run over by an American freighter!) Maybe Reeman was more right than he knew, and there was a second boat of the class, which has somehow ended up in Karotechia hands by the time of "Emerald Hammer"?

But if MiB wants Special K to have a seaplane carrying sub, he should take a look here -- at the Imperial Japanese Navy's I-400 class! (See here for information on the "I-400 and I-401: the Forgotten Submarines") These boats were even bigger than the "Surcouf", and while they didn't carry big guns like the French sub, they each carried three advanced floatplane dive-bombers -- the Aichi M6A1 "Seiran" -- intended to launch from the I-400 class boats and dive-bomb the locks of the Panama Canal! (See: here for some photos and stats on this impressive-looking plane, plus more data , color photos of an excellent 1/48 scale model of the Seiran, and a three-view drawing of the plane. )
(This plane had no Allied code-name, because the Allies didn't even know it _existed_ until the two mother ships -- apparently on their way to attack the anticipated Allied invasion fleet, or the Panama Canal (accounts differ) gave themselves up to the US Navy when Japan surrendered!)

While I-400 and I-401 are accounted for (both were tested, and eventually scuttled at sea, by the USN after the War), the same cannot be said for their sister ships I-402, I-403, I-404, and I-405. Some believe these subs were never commissioned, and others wonder if some clique of diehard IJN types (affiliated with Unit 731?), not accepting the Japanese surrender after the A-bombs were dropped, took them on the mission for which they had been designed, and were stopped (in a still classified action) by Allied Naval forces!

One intriguing possibility useful for EH and the Secret Nazi Volcano Base involves an inter-Axis technology transfer in late WWII. There is precedent for this sort of thing -- the Germans somehow transported a few examples of the Messerschmitt 163 "Komet" rocket fighter to Japan, and the Japanese tested it with the idea of building their own "Komets" to intercept B-29s! Possibly in exchange for the "Komets", an I-400 boat (say, I-404) could have ended up in German hands (complete with three Seiran floatplanes) shortly before the Allies closed in on Berlin... Its Captain could have received new orders while enroute back to Germany, or he may have already had instructions to take the new U-boat to a prearranged rendezvous... Said submersible carrier could then have found its way to Argentina, and eventually to the Secret Volcano Base... :)

"Those are Aichi M6A1s! What are they doing flying around?"

"And if they're Japanese floatplanes, why are they in Nazi markings?"

A helpful bit of trivia: The engine in the Seiran is a Japanese-built copy of the Daimler-Benz DB601 inverted V-12 used on the Messerschmitt BF109. According to Bill Reese, in charge of restoring a Seiran at the Smithsonian, "On most big Vs you have through bolts that pass through the entire cylinder and into the block. The Seiran employed big ring nuts around the base of each cylinder. To tighten them, they used a little wrench with gear teeth to turn matching teeth on the nut. Inside the engine are little bronze bushings next to each ring nut where the wrench turns -- now that's unique!" In other words, the plane needs special tools for maintenance -- which may help provide some clues to DG personnel who know something about such trivia, or have contacts who do!

The I-400 class subs have no missile capability, so the Karotechia would still need the Russian nuclear boat for the Missile Launch! (And the Russian sub would probably handle better than the I-400 boat, which, from the accounts I've seen, is much like that infamous spaceship in Douglas Adams' "Hitch-hikers" series that "Looks like a fish... Steers like a cow!" :))

But the sub pens at the Secret Nazi Volcano Base (whatever you end up naming it) should be large enough for two subs! (Some would say this doubles the size of the Karotechia's submarine fleet, but I think it only adds one more sub!):)

Oh, and one more DG related thing... While conducting some of the research on the floatplane, I found that Aichi, in 1924, had built four examples of an "experimental single engined reconnaissance floatplane"... Not much information is given on it, and I haven't yet been able to find photos. I did, however, find its designation (see: Here). They called it the "Mi-go"...

Michael


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