Andrew D. Gable
Subject: DG: More Meat for the EH Grinder
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:51:17 -0500
OK--looked about on the EH site, did some thinking, and decided count me
in for the France chapter since AFAIK, nobody has it yet.
The Man in Black
Subject: Re: DG: More Meat for the EH Grinder
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:17:27 -0500 (EST)
Excellent! Smithers, release the hounds, let's see how our new recruit's
legs work.
Daniel Harms
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:47:18 -0500
At 10:26 PM 1/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 2. In CAS' stories (or later ones), was it ever said or implied
> where Averoigne was located? Might throw in a stop-over.
I'm no geography expert, so please stop me if you know better.
To the best of my knowledge, Averoigne is actually the modern-day
region of Auvergne in central France. "Vyones", as best I can tell, is
modern-day Lyons, about fifty miles to the east of Auvergne. CAS
suggests that Averoigne includes Lyons, so perhaps Averoigne might have
covered a broader area at the time when he wrote.
The Man in Black
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:24:31 -0500 (EST)
3-2, Bases loaded, bottom of the ninth. No. 5 Andrew Gable of the
Frog-Town Ghouls on deck. The pressure is really mounting for MVP pitcher
MiB. A quick toss to third cuts the lead off. MiB with the slingshot
screwball! Gable swinging for the Grand Slam... No Good!
> 1. To MIB - any thoughts or preferences on linking of the France chapter
> to those immediately preceding or following?
The most important things are LIBRETTO and INTERPOL, neither of which is
all that well fleshed out or researched right now.
Anybody want to suggest a few good books in that regard?
Jesper Anderson
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:13:30 +0100
After thorough research, Gable wrote:
> 3. Anyone else know about the Celtic sculpture called the "Tarasque
> of Noves"? A wolf-type thing with room for a severed head in the bottom.
> A similar sculpture was also found at Linsdorf (?), probably somewhere in
> the France-Germany disputed region. What's the fate of these sculptures?
> Can't find any websites on either of them. Think I might make them ghoul
> altars or something. Worship-places of Mordiggian.
The Tarasque of Noves is at the museum "musee Calvet", Avignon. I don't
know if they have a website.
There is, however, plenty of information on the mythical being Tarasque a
round. This may or may not be related to the statue (probably not, as the
se legends are a lot newer), but may still be of interest for scenario ti
e-ins.
Stories about the Tarasque
dragon33.htm
tara.htm
tarasque.htm
The geographical area of said Tarasque
Brief summary:
A dragon terrifies a village. Several heroes perish while trying to rid t
he village of the menace. A young woman who happens to be a saint tames t
he dragon, and the villagers kill it. The village is renamed Tarascon to
celebrate the event.
ObDG:
Perhaps the Dragon was a Lloigor, or maybe a summoned horror? Maybe the means
to summon this horror are still around, and someone has found them?
Thanks for your time,
Jesper
The Man in Black
Sent: 16 January 1999 20:57
Subject: Re: DG: Emerald Hammer: France
On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, gable wrote:
> In Aktion Sweynheym, launched in summer of 1941, the Karotechia entered
> into a quasi-alliance with French ghouls. The ghouls would be given
> corpses in return for information on various occult and Mythos texts and
> their locations.
Why would the ghouls accept this arrangement? It was WWII and corpses
would be in plentiful supply. Perhaps K. uncovered Ghoul activity (re:
Cultes Des Ghouls) and were prepared to shut them down unless the Ghouls
became collaborators. I can see an early split among ghoul factions
arising from this situation. Ghoul de resistance, anyone?
Josh Shaw
Sent: 16 January 1999 16:22
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Andre D. Gable wrote:
> Hmm. Last I'd heard, people were tossing around the idea that Baphomet was a
> corrupted version of the name Mohammed, and that the Templars were actually
> Muslims (picked up in their Crusader days). Sounds kind of prosaic to me,
> but...
There's that theory too.
Like so many other things in the history of the occult / history of religion
sphere, the less we know about the facts of the matter the more, the madder and
the merrier the theories get.
I personally like to keep a clear mental distinction between the ones I think
most likely (in this case that Baphomet was entirely an invention of Phil the
Unfair's torturers) and what makes for More Gaming Fun (!).
Davide Mana
Sent: 16 January 1999 10:58
Subject: DG: Baphomet (was More on EH-France)
Josh wrote
> Clement V came to power subordinated to French Royalty.
>
> Or at least thats what my sources say.
Correct AFAIK - I was making it quick.
> As Davide knows, this is also the period (starting actually in 1307 when
> Clement was travelling in France and not yet officially settled in Avigion) of
> the suppression of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and The Temple of
> Solomon, so it would be an excellent place to go looking for talking heads and
> other interesting regalia.
Just for the curious, here's the complete (?) list of allegiations that
were brought against the Templars (living not five miles from the remains
of one of largest Templar houses in Italy has its advantages).
The list is a summary of the big one (127 accusations in all) compiled in
1308.
- Templars denied Christ, calling him false prophet, crucified
for his deeds and not for the sake of humanity; they spat
on the Cross, they stepped on it etc.
- they adored cat idols and "strange heads" (is Mr Squick in
the house?)
- they did not believe in sacraments and the masses they celebrated
were "anomalous"
- lay members gave assolution for their brother's sins
- homosexuality was practiced
- they aimed at filling the coffers of the Order above everything else
- they met secretly by night and whoever revealed the secrets
was put to death
> Also, since many modern scholars think the name Bathomet (sp? To lazy to get
> up and go find the appropriate texts right now) is a Frankinization of Abu
> Somethingortheother, meaning Father of Wisdom. Of course, if you want the
> Templers to be good guys that could be Nodens, but it sounds Gnarly to me. And
> what was Big Steve doing in 1307?
The Baphomet or Baphometto was simply considered a "devil" by the
inquisitors of the time. They did not need much finer classifications to
proceed.
As Andrew pointed out, the word "Baphomet" was generally considered by
later scholars a deformation of the name Mahomet. Which _is_ prosaic.
An accurate historical research on the Templar possessions in Piedmont -
that I'm browsing through as I write - reveals that never was a Baphomet
found in any of the over 50 Templar sites in the region, nor traces of it
can be found in the available documents.
You can make as little or as much as you like of the above - was it a
set-up or was it a really well kept secret?
From what I can recall - I do not have a reference handy - the pictures of
the Baphomet represented some kind of cat-headed critter, with a body
tapering to a sort of slug-like shape. The first time I saw it, it made me
think of a cat (poor beast) wrapped up like they used to wrap up newborn
children - which would fit with the idea of christian mockery, replacing
the baby Jesus with a cat - an often slandered animal.
Ooops! found a reference for the B. thing: "a devilish androgynous figure,
seen as the denial of Christ" - not much help here.
I am also pretty certain that the pictures I saw - some adding short arms,
breasts and various regalia to the basic structure - were much later than
14th century, and therefore - I suspect - apocryphal.
While Nyarlathotep is the "usual suspect" when it comes to the devil,
religious deviation and idolatry or midle-eastern influences, the Lloigor
could also fit the bill.
Or was the feral and childlike baphomet I remember a Ghoul changeling?
Now I see quite a few reasons why the Ghouls would sponsor a Warrior Monks
order.
All just working ideas, of course.
Andrew D. Gable
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Sent: 16 January 1999 05:10
Josh Shaw wrote:
> As Davide knows, this is also the period (starting actually in 1307 when
> Clement was travelling in France and not yet officially settled in Avigion) of
> the suppression of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and The Temple of
> Solomon, so it would be an excellent place to go looking for talking heads and
> other interesting regalia.
Talking heads...ties in with the ideas I already had about the "Tarasques"
(BTW: I don't know why they're called that - they don't look to me like they
have anything to do with the legend. Looks to me like they just needed the
name of a nasty French monster).
> Also, since many modern scholars think the name Bathomet (sp? To lazy to get
> up and go find the appropriate texts right now) is a Frankinization of Abu
> Somethingortheother, meaning Father of Wisdom.
Hmm. Last I'd heard, people were tossing around the idea that Baphomet was a
corrupted version of the name Mohammed, and that the Templars were actually
Muslims (picked up in their Crusader days). Sounds kind of prosaic to me,
but...
Josh Shaw
Sent: 16 January 1999 03:21
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Davide Mana wrote:
> Avignon was the Papal seat from 1309 to 1376, while the popes Clemente V,
> Giovanni XXII, Benedetto XII, Clemente VI, Innocenzo VI, Urbano V and
> Gregorio IX were subiordined to French Royalty.
Clement V came to power subordinated to French Royalty.
Or at least thats what my sources say.
As Davide knows, this is also the period (starting actually in 1307 when
Clement was travelling in France and not yet officially settled in Avigion) of
the suppression of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and The Temple of
Solomon, so it would be an excellent place to go looking for talking heads and
other interesting regalia.
Also, since many modern scholars think the name Bathomet (sp? To lazy to get
up and go find the appropriate texts right now) is a Frankinization of Abu
Somethingortheother, meaning Father of Wisdom. Of course, if you want the
Templers to be good guys that could be Nodens, but it sounds Gnarly to me. And
what was Big Steve doing in 1307?
Just a thought.
> Rome was the seat before and after.
Not counting a short stay in Naples (in late 1294)
The Man in Black
Subject: Re: DG: Interpol and France
Sent: 15 January 1999 23:17
Ex-Empire State Bronx Bomber's Catcher Shane Ivey is signalling for the
outside curveball. MiB shaking his head on the mound. Ivey wants the
screwball. MiB in denial. Ivey reluctantly readies himself for the
fastball:
> - Interpol is an intelligence-sharing organization - it doesn't have an
> operational arm, and there's been serious resistance to forming one (search
> on "Europol").
>
> In any event, the point about Interpol's lack of enforcement authority was
> correct: Interpol is NOT a law enforcement agency, it is an information-
> sharing agency.
Yes, but that doesn't stop cheesy French films from making one up for
Interpol. It is in the Frantic/La Femme Nikita tradition that a covert arm
of Interpol exists. In the world of Conspiracy Horror, where nothing is
true and everything is denied, Interpol enforcement isn't too far-fetched.
Patrice Mermoud
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:10:12 +0100
> ""? A wolf-type thing with room for a severed head in the
> bottom. A similar sculpture was also found at Linsdorf (?), probably
> somewhere in the France-Germany disputed region. What's the fate of these
> sculptures?
Will try to inquire as to these.
Patrice Mermoud
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:16:34 +0100
> The Tarasque of Noves is at the museum "musee Calvet", Avignon. I don't
> know if they have a website.
> There is, however, plenty of information on the mythical being Tarasque
> around. This may or may not be related to the statue (probably not, as
> these legends are a lot newer), but may still be of interest for scenario
> tie-ins.
I'll try to get something when I get there probable next Spring.
The Tarasque is one the main elements of the Avignon folk tales.
> Brief summary:
> A dragon terrifies a village. Several heroes perish while trying to rid
> the village of the menace. A young woman who happens to be a saint tames
> the dragon, and the villagers kill it. The village is renamed Tarascon to
> celebrate the event.
AFAIR that's a fine resume.
> Perhaps the Dragon was a Lloigor, or maybe a summoned horror? Maybe the
> means to summon this horror are still around, and someone has found them?
Then these means may very well be hiddent in the Pope castle in Avignon
(Avignon was the Pope city long before the Vatican got the honor). The
papal castle is now opened to visitors (at least part of it).
To make things harder, the moment to use these means may be during the
Stageplay festival, held yearly in Avignon and which attracts thousands
of people.
Davide Mana
Subject: Re: DG: More on EH-France
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:31:34 +0100
Greetings.
Still patrolling the list for obvious Italian bashing and demeaning, here's
another offender...
> (Avignon was the Pope city long before the Vatican got the honor).
> The papal castle is now opened to visitors (at least part of it).
Sorry Patrice, that's not exact.
Avignon was the Papal seat from 1309 to 1376, while the popes Clemente V,
Giovanni XXII, Benedetto XII, Clemente VI, Innocenzo VI, Urbano V and
Gregorio IX were subiordined to French Royalty.
Rome was the seat before and after.
The period is remembered as "Cattivite Avignonese" (Avignon Captivity).
Disclaimer: please notice that there's no love lost between Turin and Rome.
I state the above only for the sake of historical accuracy.
And to twart the anti-Italian conspiracy.
Patrice Mermoud
Subject: Re: DG: DG in France
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:33:26 +0100
> (1) The megalithic stone structures in Brittany may well have mythos
> significance. Deep Ones perhaps?
Never thought about it. Too used to link these to Asterix, I think :-)
> (2) During Napoleonic times, an awful lot of stuff was collected from
> around the world and is now in French museums etc. They may well have
> picked up things of interest to DG.
Notably in Egypt, just like the Rosette Stone now in British Museum.
Remember that after Napoleon demise, France was looted at least once during
WW2.
Most of these items will probably have been taken by Karotechia.
> (3) The mysterious Comte de Saint Germain might be of some mythos
> significance as well.
Indeed. I've used him in several scenarios for various games. He's well known
and always fine to use.
> (4) The extensive Paris sewer system and any links to the catacombes
> would be great for Ghouls.
There are links between the sewers, the catacombs and the old stone diggings
undeground, plus natural caves, underground rivers, the subway.....
You may imagine how the Ghouls feel at home in this town. Now add all the
cemetaries inside the city (haven't you ever wondered why Morrison choosed
Paris to die ?)
Patrice Mermoud
Subject: Re: DG: DG in France
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:46:42 +0100
> There have been a number of supplements published in French about French
> matters--CoC in Paris, etc. Are any of them available in translation for us
> non-Francophones? Je ne parle pas beaucoup de Francais. :-(
As far as I can tell, I've never heard of any translations of anything Jeux
Descartes did for CoC (there had been talks about a US edition of the 1920s
France sourcebook "Les Annees Folles" (very impressive work) but it never
concluded).
Most of what has been published has been in magazines hence no trnalsations.
I'm not sure of the two french scenarios ("Les Oeufs de KArlatt and
Nightmare Agency) but I think at least NA is located in the US. I'll check.